Discussion:Georg Branting

Espionnage pas verifié

(Excusé-moi pour escrivir en anglais; je peut lire textes français, mais je trouve escrivir français correct très dificil. Naturallement, vous peuvez reponder en français.)

The text about Branting as a spy is completely unsourced. The template {{À sourcer}} was removed with a reference given to a version of the English wikipedia, with a comment that "this seems to be translated from English", here. However, that particular version of the English wikipedia was due to repeated but shortlived attempts to add unsourced material by Utilisateur:Percameriksson to the en-wiki article. Each time the material was removed fast, but added again after some week or so. Seemingly, the contributer never understood that "sources" should be more than vague attributions in the comment field. This can be followed in the history of the English article. After a while, (s)he gave up.

Therefore, references to the English article cannot substitute for sources. Percameriksson in the history comment referred to Projet Venona. There may or may not be sources to be found there. The Swedish sister article about Branting also has a short notice about the claimed esionage, with a reference to a book by a Swedish expert on military intelligence, sv:Wilhelm Agrell.

However, at present, the material about the espionage in the French article is unsourced, and should be noted as such, or removed. Therefore, I'll put back the À sourcer. JoergenB (discuter) 8 janvier 2016 à 00:49 (CET)

@Heureux qui comme ulysse You sharpened the claim (changing "informateur" to "agent") and added it to the lead, but did no attempt to give any source. Therefore, I'll revert your change. If you want to add it again, please also provide some source. (Escuse-mois pour écrivir en anglais; je peut lire français, mais presque pas ça écrivir correctemente.)JoergenB (discuter) 17 octobre 2017 à 20:47 (CEST)

@JoergenB Bonjour, il ne s'agit pas de donner la source car je me contente simplement de rectifier quelques mots pour leur équivalent en français correct ː il faut en effet privilégier le mot agent (en l'occurence soviétique) à "espion" ou "informateur", moins précis. Je me permets de rétablir la version, d'autant que j'avais corrigé quelques autres fautes de français ː accents, majuscules. Merci.

@Heureux qui comme ulysse I understand; but you did more than correct a few words. You also added the unsourced statement about Branting being a Soviet agent to the lead. This statement should eventually be sorced, or removed. That it is present in a section clearly marked as having insufficient sources is one thing; adding it to the top is another.

I do not think you understand the history of this article. It was translated from this version of the English article. However, that version was soon reverted. The one subject editor Percameriksson, who added the item in the first place, entered an edit war, but gave up, and left the English project; see en:Special:Contributions/Percameriksson. Probably the same editor then translated his/her article version into French, and had better success here: No one noted that it was unsourced in wiki sense; see Spécial:Contributions/Percameriksson.

Percameriksson never understood what we mean with sources. However, the sources he/she referred to in editing comments seem to exist, and may or may not verify the claims about Branting. Tjis is the only reason I didn't remove the whole unsourced statements about Branting's possible Soviet agent activities, and asked for someone with access to the suggested sources to check them.

Actually, if frwiki has the same policy as enwiki when it comes to unsourced derogatory statements about people, properly, the article should be 'cleaned' from all references about espionage or other Sovietic agency activities, since noone has sourced them.

I'll remove your additions about the claimed activities from the lead, but leave the linguistic corrections in the section Espion soviétique. I hope you find this (temporarily) acceptable. The alternative would be either to add sources, or to remove all about Branting spying. JoergenB (discuter) 26 octobre 2017 à 20:39 (CEST)