Discussion Wikipédia:Sondage/la représentation des noms en japonais

La méthode avec virgule semble intéressante mais est-elle utilisé quelque part en dehors de la Wikipédia ? Si oui, ce serait plus ou moins du travail inédit (donc une mauvaise idée). VIGNERON * ^discut. 19 mars 2008 à 22:33 (CET)

• I used Google Translator to get the jist of the question - I am not aware of use of the comma solution (no. 3) outside of Wikipedia. WhisperToMe (d) 20 mars 2008 à 22:12 (CET)

Regarding choosing which people to have their names represented in Western order and which people to represent in Japanese order one could use the first year of Meiji as the dividing line: People born BEFORE 1868 are in Japanese order and people born on 1868 or afterwards are in Western order. WhisperToMe (d) 1 avril 2008 à 11:44 (CEST)

This is exactly what I want to avoid. While the idea is interesting in certain ways, writing (or reading) an article about the late 19th century would become a pain in the ass, having to constantly refer to the year of birth of someone to see in which way the name has to be written, and if two people, one born in 1867, the other one two years later, were refered to in the same sentence, the two methodes would be used... It's the best way to give an headache to the readers :( -Ash - (ᚫ) 1 avril 2008 à 12:52 (CEST)

It depends on what we are at. As for the main text, I do not think either that it would be good to have such a (too) hard and fast rule. Since there is a change in convention, we can't escape a "grey zone" where special care is needed ; and I agree with Ash that adopting a rigid convention would result in a mess for late XIXth century articles. We shall never forget that our purpose must be to suit the reader and keep things reasonably clear : consistency inside articles seems much more important to me in such occasions, and a footnote or even an allusion in the main texte would be required to make things perfectly clear. This is needed in cases like Natsume Sōseki : Sōseki could be easily pass for a family name to French readers, all the more so that he is commonly referred by it, but it is false.

As for a convention for choosing the title of articles, your proposal could be discussed. However, we first have to check if there is not a French language convention in Japanese studies already, and if not what uses are generally followed in French publications about Japan. No rules shall be created on a Wikipedia that contradict established uses in the language it is written in, be they officially standardized or not. Aucassin (d) 2 avril 2008 à 09:36 (CEST)

Bertrand, that solution sounds very reasonable; Do check if the French language has a convention about this, and if so, use and cite it :) WhisperToMe (d) 2 avril 2008 à 11:00 (CEST)

Also, regarding Aluminium's post about what Japanese people believe about Japanese names being switched to fit Western order, many Japanese do that themselves when they write their names in Roman characters. For instance the official Government of Japan website, in English, uses "Yasuo Fukuda." [1] - Not ALL Japanese do this, but many do. I used an English example but I believe that many Japanese would do the same when writing in French. Also, the deal about Western people retaining their naming orders in Japanese is just how it works. It's a strange convention but that is how things go. WhisperToMe (d) 3 avril 2008 à 08:55 (CEST)

I try to find some official convention, but I didn't find them. It's seems to be occidental order in romanji, and Japanese order for Kanji. But it's not an official convention... Djidane39 (d) 3 avril 2008 à 09:14 (CEST)

I think that we've got to stick to the Japanese order all the way, from title to main text (and of course in the kanji section ! ) in order to avoid my own bad experiences when using some books and dictionaries : first, not being able to find out where is the family name and where is the first name of a not-so-well-known Japanese; and secondly, not being able to make sure what kanjis are refering to what part of the full name. The hypertext structure of Wikipedia can help to get through such difficulties rather quickly, but a strong and coherent standard is better.

Je pense qu'il faut rester sur l'ordre japonais Nom-Prénom dès le titre, et dans le corps de l'article et bien sûr dans la section en kanji. Je pense en tout cas qu'il est essentiel, d'une part de ne pas laisser dans le doute les lecteurs sur "il est où le nom, dans quel ordre c'est ?" à quelque passage que ce soit d'un article sur un Japonais-pas-si-connu-que-ça, et d'autre part je trouve important que l'on puisse identifier quels kanjis sont ceux du nom, quels kanjis ceux du prénom, et le plus simple pour ça est de mettre le japonais et la transcription française dans le même ordre. Ces incertitudes, je pense que je ne suis pas le seul à les rencontrer et à être agacé quand cela me fait perdre du temps. La structure en hypertexte de Wikipédia peut aider à sortir assez rapidement de ce genre de problème, mais je pense qu'une norme solide et cohérente est meilleure encore. Amicalement Aluminium (d) 3 avril 2008 à 11:20 (CEST)

The "Prénom Nom (Kanji Nom Kanji Prénom transliteration Hepburn)" template has its way of explaining which name is the family name and which name is the family name. For instance, the characters in Japanese would be consistently in the same order and the characters are always transliterated in that order. When the user sees a name in two different orders she will click the "help note" and realize that the "Prénom Nom" is the form of the name that the Japanese person is typically known as in French. The "transliteration Hepburn" is how the Japanese name is said in Japanese. I understand thatthe treatment of Japanese names is controversial; in my opinion the best manner to deal with it is to take the usage that Francophones use (i.e. Yasuo Fukuda for the politician) and tell the reader that while Francophones use that order people speaking Japanese say Fukuda Yasuo. With a consistent manner of displaying kanji and the transliterated Hepburn of the kanji the readerwill understand the treatment of Japanese names. WhisperToMe (d) 3 avril 2008 à 18:54 (CEST)

Looks like you're constantly changing your point of view... I'm not changing mine. At this point, discussing with you seems a bit irrelevant. Have a nice day. Amicalement Aluminium (d) 3 avril 2008 à 22:21 (CEST)

I'm not so sure what you are referring to. Where in my statements is a change of view reflected? By "form of the name that the Japanese person is typically known as in French" that could be in either order, whether we are referring to Tokugawa Ieyasu or Yasuo Fukuda. At a later point a poll could discuss how the decision for naming order of Japanese people could be made. WhisperToMe (d) 4 avril 2008 à 01:16 (CEST)

I'm not so sure what you are referring to, Where in my statements is a change of view reflected? WhisperToMe (d) 4 avril 2008 à 01:16 (CEST)

Sometimes you're claiming we should look at the birth date of an individual, then you indulge into saying that the "French tradition" is relevant. I'm quite confused. Perhaps it's just a misunderstanding. Sorry if I made you uneasy. But right now, you seem to suggest to make a poll about the poll. Russian dolls ! Amicalement Aluminium (d)

What I was trying to do was to suggest ways of determining which Japanese people would be expressed in FN (Family Name)- GN (Given Name) and which people are to be expressed in GN-FN. One could have a more arbitrary or less arbitrary way of doing it; I haven't decided which way is best, so as of writing I have no opinion about which way is better. Regarding "French tradition" what I meant is that it is common for writings in French and other Indo-European languages to render names of modern-day Japanese figures in the Western order, but at the same time historical figures are rendered in Japanese order. Where to draw the line (who gets FNGN and who gets GNFN) is controversial, and the debate over whether to set a year determining name order, whether to individually assess each article on a Japanese person to determine name order, or whether to have all Japanese name articles follow one name order, could be a topic for another poll/sondage following this one. This poll is mostly concerned with how Japanese characters are displayed and what the template for displaying Japanese names should be. WhisperToMe (d) 4 avril 2008 à 06:25 (CEST)