Discussion:Iğdır

the three revert war

Sorry, I don't know French language. We have a problem with Agamitsudo It is hard to understand this revert that causes a an edit war. The initial point is Protektor's this edit is partly Kurdish nationalism propaganda, isn't it? I'm from Iğdır and it is a fact that our city has a cosmopolitan society. After the Turkish-Armenian war, most Armenian people had to leave there, so Armenians don't live in Iğdır. However, historical Armenian gravestones can be found in some villages of Iğdır. Therefore, I accept that this geographical area is also belong to Armenian history and culture, there is no problem the portal link of Armenia. According to election results, Iğdır's ethnicity consists of two main ethnics of people. Kurds and Azeris. These two group of people's rate of population are the same. Neither Azeris nor Kurds have the ethnic majority. There is no reliable sources to prove that because ethnic identity is not important for many Turkish people apart from some nationalists. Because of not caring the ethnicty, all Azeri origin people define theirselves as a Turk. On the other hand some Kurds define theirselves as a Turk whereas some does not. By the way, most fictional Kurdistan maps and fictional West Armenian maps include Iğdır in their geographical area. It's okay, but when Protektor are adding Kurdistan portal links and stubs [1] [2] [3] why are Azeri origin people, who is one of major ethnicty in Iğdır, ignored by Agamitsudo? Isn't it a double standard? Why am I not adding Azerbaijan portal link on Iğdır which has got also consisting of Azerbaijani cultural elements?

In Turkish wikipedia we take notice of "natural point of view" and there are so many discussions in order to enable this significant wikipedia principle. I don't know French Wikipedia's runnings or local wikipedia policies but if anyone do not care the "natural point of view" and "three revert rule", edit wars and conflicts between users will emerge immediately.

I don't want to blame some users, I just want to put an objective view point, because endless wars only can be solved with negotiation. I'm a university student whose department is "political science and public administration". I'm interested in world history, especially Europe history and I'm also against to lack of education and putting forward the stabile consideration. I invite everybody to objectively think these facts. Best regards...--Sabri76^messagerie 22 juillet 2011 à 02:23 (CEST)

If you don't speak French, don't try to modify articles on WP:fr. Consider this as a warning. Sardur - allo ? 22 juillet 2011 à 07:18 (CEST)

We also had this kind of discussion about articles on French cities in Corsica, Brittany, or other regions in which the local culture is strong. The neutral point of view lead us to consider that there is only one official name for the city, which is the name given by the State administration. Arnaudus (d) 22 juillet 2011 à 08:55 (CEST)

Hello Iğdır,

I'm writing you about « problem with Agamitsudo » you met. Why did I revert yours editions ? Actually, Iğdır is now a Turkish city and was about 1920 an armenian city (see First Republic of Armenia). At Contrary, the city has never been an Azeri city. It was the main reason of my reverts whithout assuming current ethnics of people represented in the city.

Best regards, --Agamitsudo (d) 22 juillet 2011 à 09:20 (CEST)

+1 Sardur. Cantons-de-l'Est 22 juillet 2011 à 13:31 (CEST)

Apparently, it is upsetting that people didn't understand my point and they revert my edit again with no intention to negotiation. Now I hope it's okay with you that I'm editing the article with Arnaudus's ideas that want to negotiate.

Sardur's warning is not logical and not speaking French should not be discriminative. Being non-French speaker is not an obstacle to contribute any kind of wikimedia project. For example, a Dutch user help to categorize in tr.wiktionary and a Belgian man helped tr.wikipedia for many years without knowing Turkish. I know French people is not satisfied that English language is more popular than French language whereas I don't allow the restriction on my voice.

I agree with Arnaudus's comment that there is only one official name for the city, which is the name given by the State administration. So, why do people still go on to write local Kurdish name of Iğdır with deleting local Azerbaijani name. I have researched history of Iğdır and I have speak many Iğdır citizens. In 1920 Iğdır was an Armenian city but, in 1923-1980 period, Iğdır was an Azeri city without doubt. After the coup d'etat of 1980, many Kurdish families migrated to Iğdır and they created a cosmopolitan city. Why some people want to make Kurdish propaganda? I again emphasize that because of the past "Democratic Republic of Armenia", Իգդիր is necessary for this article but if were added the Kurdish name without Azerbaijani name, we will be create a double standard and this make a propaganda. In ethnically thinking, Iğdır is not a completely Kurdish or Azerbaijani city. In legally, Iğdır is the Turkish city, whereas if we want to add an ethnical perspective, we have to add not only Kurdish name but also Azerbaijani name. Turkish government's Kurdish policy is another topic that we don't have to discuss but even "The Provincial Culture and Tourism Department"'s web site talks about Iğdır's traditional culture which composed of Azerbaijani customs, foods and folks because of its historical place for Azerbaijani culture.(See provincial clothes, provincial musics etc. about Azerbaijani culture) So, asserting that has never been an Azeri city is certainly wrong. It is okay that if we don't mention the etnhical factors in Iğdır, we mustn't say that Iğdır is an Azerbaijani or Kurdish city insted of saying Turkish city. It is just about equal care for article's natural point of view. Now I don't ignore this Kurdish culture in daily life in Iğdır but if we don't care the Azerbaijani culture, it will lead to be inequality of people living in Iğdır.

I want to request a fairness for this article for people who hasn't got any information for this city. I'm also a volunteer in real life and wikipedia is important for me which enabled me to reveal my volunteering emotions. If people give wrong information about this city, it will punish me to my recognition of this propaganda. I want to request a justice. Is it too much for me as a non-French speaker who contributes Turkish and English wikipedia and wiktionary for 4 years and spend lifetime to give information and help people to reach the knowledge?--Sabri76^messagerie 22 juillet 2011 à 22:12 (CEST)

I don't care about the substance, but this is my last warning : stop modifying articles on WP:fr (excepting of course interwikis or stuff like that) if you can't write in French. For instance, I'm not trying to modify articles on WP:tr on substantial points because I'm not able to argue about them (and hence to justify them) in Turkish language, or because I'm not able to understand local rules. That's a basic rule, and in any case a well-established one here. Sardur - allo ? 23 juillet 2011 à 00:23 (CEST)

Again I say I don't want to be exposed to discrimination by French wikipedians, it's not unfair. It is upsetting me that In Turkish wikipedia, we wrote about en:Armenian Genocide as a Armenian Massacre (tr:Ermeni kırımı) because of enabling natural point of view although our goverment's approach denying even massacre. However, French wikipedia cannot stop Kurdish nationalists who want to make propaganda in terms of their world view. On the other hand, Azebaijani and Armenian wikipedias are fully one-sided. I was thought French wiki's natural point of view but if you investigate my last edit, I just removed Kurdish propaganda in the article. According to unoffical statistics that was deducted from election votes, Iğdır is composed of approximately %40 Kurds, %55 Azeris and %5 Turks. Some Turkish nationalists says that Azeri people is Turkish but, they just a close nations. Now I'm agree with you there is no need to give a link for Azerbaijan portal but why you are still insist on adding Kurdistan portal link? Is it because of Iğdır is enclosed by artificial Kurdistan maps? Your local natural point of view is a Kurdish propaganda isn't it? I think Armenians who live in outside of Armenia, mostly Europe and the USA, have a tendency to attack Turkish and Azerbaijani topics in order to justify their allegations. Almost every artificial Kurdistan map include Iğdır its own borders. I think it is not to be an excuse to add Kurdistan flag for this article. This is just a propaganda of a Kurdish nationalist or a person who hates Turkey. The desired goal is divide Turkey as a two states and their starting point is web sites that give information to us such as wikipedia. How do you let this desired goal in French wikipedia? Is your local "natural point of view policiy" about French nationalism against Turkey? It's upsetting me that why you let the Kurdish propaganda in French wikipedia. Apart from Kurdish wikipedia, you cannot see any Kurdistan flag in other wiki languages of Iğdır articles. Do you know why? Because any wikipedia project violate "natural point of view" as far as in this wikipedia. Does nobody ever want to fix it?--Sabri76^messagerie 23 juillet 2011 à 10:06 (CEST)

Retour sur l'agitation provoquée par Sabri76

Bonjour à tous,
Iğdır est en Turquie, le portail de la Turquie est donc évident. Iğdır a été en Arménie (première république Arménienne 1918-1921), le portail de l'Arménie est donc pertinent. Iğdır est dans la région naturelle et culturelle du Kurdistan ; l'adjonction du portail du Kurdistan est donc plutôt logique (à titre d'exemple, la Bretagne, outre le fait qu'elle est une région administrative de France, est également une région culturelle et naturelle ; le portail:Bretagne est apposé sur l'article de la ville de Rennes, sans que cela ne soit en rien une expression sécessionniste). Enfin, même si il y a une communauté azéri à Iğdır (comme mentionné dans l'article), cela ne permet pas de catégoriser l'article dans le projet Azerbaïdjan (dans WP, une forte communauté x dans une ville étrangère y ne permet pas de catégoriser la dite ville dans le projet:x) ; dois-je le préciser, j'aurais exactement la même position dans le cas de la présence d'une forte communauté australienne, coréenne ou sénégalaise.
La politisation polémique sur le sujet, effectuée par Sabri76, ne dépasse donc pas le cadre de ses propres allégations (souvent douteuses d'ailleurs) et n'engage que lui.
Cordialement, --Agamitsudo (d) 23 juillet 2011 à 10:58 (CEST)