Discussion:Nachtigall

Pourquoi avez-vous supprimé les ajouts tirés du wiki anglais ?

Pourquoi cacher l'implication directe de ce bataillon dans le massacre des Juifs de Lvov et Vinnitsa ? Le cacher revient à nier ces massacres et donc à faire preuve de négationnisme... ce qui est très grave. Pourquoi cacher qu'ls massacrèrent avec les troupes allemandes quelques 7000 Juifs et 4000 Polonais en exil ainsi que des Ukrainiens soupçonnés de sympathie soviétique ? Pourquoi cacher que les Allemands ont créé ce bataillon en espérant soulever l'enthousiasme local (avec la complicité de l'OUN) et rallier les Ukrainiens à laur cause ? Pourquoi cacher que les autorités allemandes refusèrent de reconnaître l'indépendance de l'Ukraine, proclamée par ce bataillon lors de la prise de Lvov ? Pourquoi ne pas dire qu'elles rappelèrent aussi le bataillon à Cracovie pour lui faire rendre ses armes (30 août) ? Pourquoi ne pas dire qu'elles le fusionnèrent avec le bataillon Roland, et qu'ensemble ils formèrent une nouvelle unité : le 201° Schutzmannschaftbataillon .

• l'article wikipedia anglais --Totallrecall (d) 14 novembre 2010 à 19:03 (CET)

Ce n'est pas ce que vous avez écrit, et vous interprétez ce qui est écrit dans le wikipedia anglais ...

Pourquoi ne signez-vous pas vos messages ? Vous savez peut-être mieux que moi ce que j'ai écrit ? --Totallrecall (d) 15 novembre 2010 à 01:43 (CET)

La participation et l'implication de ce bataillon dans ces massacres est pour le moins controversée, sauf à lire la propagande soviétique de la fin des années 50. Pour le reste, rien ne vous empêche de traduire l'article de wiki (en) qui évoque ces faits. --Lebob (d) 22 décembre 2010 à 14:24 (CET)

controversée ? C'est simple il y a les Allemands de l'ouest qui ont toujours nié et les autres... soviétiques, polonais, ukrainiens, russes, les historiens de la shoah, bref à peu près toutes les personnes honnêtes (et victimes de la guerre!) sauf les allemands (coupables de la guerre!) , disent et ont toujours dit que le bataillon nachtigall et les nationalistes ukrainiens ont massacré les juifs à Lvov et ailleurs ! Vous nous postez un lien qui le démontre absolument en prétendant que lien ne montre qu'une prétendue "controverse" et que l'accusation se limite aux communistes des années 50. Effectivement les premiers à dénoncer les massacrs prepétrés par Nachtigall ont été les Est-allemands en 1959 pour être précis :

"Allegations of 1959 In 1959 sensational allegations were made by the East German Professor Albert Norden that the killing in Lviv was done by Ukrainians and specifically by the Nachtigall Battalion. The accusations were aimed primarily at discrediting professor Theodor Oberländer, who in 1941 was the German officer attache to the Battalion and who in 1959 was a minister in the West German government.[citation needed] A committee was formed in East Berlin to look into the allegations about the participation of the Nachtigall Battalion and Oberlander in the atrocities in Lviv. Of the 19 witnesses who testified only 3 had ever been to Lviv where the atrocities were to have taken place, and all three had been there only in transit. Nevertheless the East German court found Oberlander guilty and sentenced him in absentia to life imprisonment[3]. Another court investigation was launched in West Germany. No new documents were forthcoming except falsified written "eye-witness" statements by former members of the Nachtigall Battalion from the Soviet Union. These accounts were translated and forwarded 6 April 1960 to Ludwigsburg. The accusations stated that the Nachtigall Battalion killed Jews and Poles in Lviv, Zolochiv, Sataniv, Yuzvyn, Mykhalpol, and on the night of 3–4 July they shot hundreds of Polish intellectuals.[3] The West German courts examined the documents in detail. The examiners came to the conclusion that "[m]ost of the members of the Nachtigall Battalion, although they knew about the terrible killings done by the NKVD, (the NKVD had murdered over 5000 prisoners in jails before the German occupation) and among the killed were members of the families of a number of the soldiers (Shukhevych's younger brother was one of those killed), held to exemplary discipline". 232 witnesses testified that the allegations against the Nachtigall Battalion were false and the West German Court absolved them of blame and punishment.[3] The allegations against Oberlander and the Nachtigall Battalion were inspired by the KGB in an attempt to compromise the Adenauer government in West Germany. Teodor Oberlander had in 1953 become Minister of Victims of War, deported and repatriated Germans in the Adenauer government.[citation needed] At the same time Soviet sources, in order to cover up their participation in the murder of thousands of Ukrainian and Polish civilians in Lviv, also let out a rumor that Oberlander had ordered the murder of Stepan Bandera[3] which was disproved when Bandera's Soviet assassin, Bohdan Stashynsky, defected to the West and confessed.

Mais au jour d'aujourd'hui il n'y a pas que les est-allemands de 1959 qui ont reconnu les crimes commis par le bataillon Nachtigall ! Lisez plutôt :

Les Russes et les Ukrainiens d'aujourd'hui (pas les communistes d'il y a 50 ans!) :

"Contemporary Russian sources >2006!

Russian historian Sergei Chuyev in his book on the Ukrainian Legion based on Russian archival sources wrote On June 30 in Lviv the German administration started mass repressions. The commander of the Einzatzgruppen C Dr. Rasch had incriminated the death of those incarcerated in the Lviv jails to the "Jews from the NKVD" which became the spark for the terror against the Jews and Poles of Lviv. In the bloody murder of the Jews the Einsatzgruppen under the command of brigadeerfuhrer SS Karl Eberhard Schenhardt took prominence. The sections of this group under the command of H. Kruger and W. Kutschman on July 4 murdered 23 Polish professors and their families. On July 11, 2 more were killed, and later the former prime-minister of Poland, Professor Bartel. In the Autumn of 1941 a ghetto was formed in Lviv. Chuyev also wrote: According to the Ukrainian historian Vitaly Maslovskiy, between July 1 and July 6, Nachtigall and Roland battalions exterminated nearly 3 thousand Soviet activists, as well as Polish and Jewish residents. [8][9] Chuyev quotes the full text of the Act of the Restoration of the Ukrainian State (Акт о восстановлении украинского государства), which was published in Lviv on 30 June 1941, which includes the following proclamation: "3. The Restored Ukrainian State will closely collaborate with the Nazi Reich, which is creating a New Order in Europe and the World, under the leadership of Adolf Hitler, and helps the Ukrainian people liberate themselves from the Moscow occupation."[10]" Or pour eux lutter contre les communistes ça voulait dire aussi lutter contre les Juifs... d'où les pogroms !

Les Polonais : "Polish research (1998)

In his book "Poland's Holocaust", Polish sociologist Tadeusz Piotrowski lists eyewitness accounts of the Lviv massacres, including Czeslaw Lucszak's claim that Nachtigall murdered Polish populace. A. Rzepicki believes that Nachtigall was used by German Nazis for the roundup of the Jews. According to a study by Wlodzimierz Bonusiak, the Jewish and Polish pogroms were carried out by 4 different formations: some Ukrainian police, Nachtigall, Feldgestapo, and Einsatzkommando. On May 2, 1966, the Hamburg Procurator von Below wrote: "Findings inside and outside the country produced the following conclusions. ... various branches of the Ukrainian Liberation Army took part in these outrages which also involved arbitrary killings". Professor Albert Norden, a German politician, and Werner Brockdorff concur.[11]"

Les historiens de la shoah : "Accounts by Holocaust scholars

Holocaust scholars attribute the killing to Ukrainians under the direction of the Ukrainian nationalists.[12][13][14][15] The Encyclopedia of the Holocaust states: "In June–July 1941 it is estimated that over 4,000 Jews were murdered in pogroms in Lvov and other cities in Western Ukraine. The Nachtigall Battalion, under the command of Shukhevych, took part in these pogroms.[16] The Simon Wiesenthal Center also states that the Nachtigall Battalion participated along with the Germans in pogroms where over 4,000 Jews were murdered in Lviv in July, 1941.[16]. Professor Himka from the University of Alberta states that evidence vindicates Nachtigall but that it also shows other OUN members engaged in the murder of Jews at that time.[17] On December 6, 2007, the Chairman of the Yad Vashem Memorial in Jerusalem Yosef Lapid stated in an interview with the radio network Deutsche Welle that the Yad Vashem Memorial has a dossier from both German and Soviet sources showing that the Group Nachtigall took part in the pogroms in Lviv in the Summer of 1941. "Until now, the Ukrainian side has so far not asked us for these documents", said Lapid and invited both Ukrainian historians and President Yushchenko to study them together. He added that part of these documents has already been used in the writing of the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust in 1990.[18]"

Et après tout ça vous continuez à laver le bataillon nachtigall de tout soupçon ? Quelle étrange attitude !

Il semble que vous niez également que l'OUN aité été derrière la formation du bataillon nachtigall... jamais personne n'a nié que l'OUN était derrière nachtigall, sauf vous apparemment et vous vous croyez permis de censurer... pour votre culture personnelle qui a besoin visiblement d'être fortement enrichie : www.nachtigall.iapmm.lviv.ua/nachtigall.php

Cher Totallrecall, le wiki anglais n'est pas une référence à elle-seule. Mais avec de bonnes sources et des références irréprochables, rien n'est impossible.--Homeristan (discuter) 8 janvier 2015 à 17:04 (CET)